291) The Top/Bottom Problem

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Andrew
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291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby Andrew » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:22 am

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A certain host of the Otaku Spirit Animecast has been holding back his frustration over a particular element in anime romance, and it’s time for him to finally let loose. Listen in to find out what’s the problem with the whole Top and Bottom system in romance. How it does and doesn’t deliver.

Topics this episode: Common terms and what they mean, the top/bottom hierarchy, writing tools, goods and bads in its use, issues with opposite gender writing, fantasies versus realistic interpretation, the fujoshi, passionate fanbases, and more!

The opening song for this episode is the OP for wolf Girl and Black Prince called “LOVE GOOD TIME” by SpecialThanks. The closing song for this episode is the ED for Wolf Girl and Black Prince called “Ookami Heart” by Oresama.
http://otakuspirit.com/2017/02/animecas ... m-problem/
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fragoff
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby fragoff » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:02 pm

Very nice, all over the place discution guys ;)

If there is a thing i hate in animes it is the will they/won't they thing. I cannot, beside forcing you to go get the manga, understand why show creators almost never go trought romance.

Coming from the country who has the most deviant porn industry out there, i can't understand why a kiss or a sexual relation is such an hard thing to place in a romance anime.

Ore monogatari was the perfect failure for that. Like you guys pointed out, they go out on 3rd episode, kiss on episode 7 or so, and then nothing! No more kiss, no evolution whatsoever! It kills me.
Godamit!!! Once the first kiss is done, at least gives us a couple of them afterward.

The other thing you guys mention is the fatal interuption when an interesting development can happen.

In golden time, for exemple, why the hell did they prevent the mains carracters from making out in the bedroom scene. I understand they can't show anything, and this is not an ecchi/hentai thing. But they could have made a suggestive cut and everything would have been fine. Insteat we get the afermentioned interuption.
Worste is, having them sleep together would have seriously enanced the drama/resolution at the end because their couple would have evolved so far.

I am a fan of the to love ru serie, and i understand that you need to keep the comic situation where rito is incapable of declaring his love for haruna. And there it is perfectly normal because it is part of the plot.

It pisses me off! Make those damned couple evolve! Anime creators should stop shying away from kisses and suggested intercourses. They produce god damned lolicon stuff over there!

Sorry for this guy. Had to get it out, purge the bad. It is a thing that is nagging at me all the time. Mind you, i am not talking about sexualizing romance shows. I just think that, for the sake of the emotions you can feel as a viewer, sometime a kiss would do the trick.

But anyway, go watch ore monogatari and golden time. They are still great shows!
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby SemiBolt » Sun Feb 26, 2017 4:34 pm

fragoff wrote:Very nice, all over the place discution guys ;)

If there is a thing i hate in animes it is the will they/won't they thing. I cannot, beside forcing you to go get the manga, understand why show creators almost never go trought romance.

Coming from the country who has the most deviant porn industry out there, i can't understand why a kiss or a sexual relation is such an hard thing to place in a romance anime.

Ore monogatari was the perfect failure for that. Like you guys pointed out, they go out on 3rd episode, kiss on episode 7 or so, and then nothing! No more kiss, no evolution whatsoever! It kills me.
Godamit!!! Once the first kiss is done, at least gives us a couple of them afterward.

The other thing you guys mention is the fatal interuption when an interesting development can happen.

In golden time, for exemple, why the hell did they prevent the mains carracters from making out in the bedroom scene. I understand they can't show anything, and this is not an ecchi/hentai thing. But they could have made a suggestive cut and everything would have been fine. Insteat we get the afermentioned interuption.
Worste is, having them sleep together would have seriously enanced the drama/resolution at the end because their couple would have evolved so far.

I am a fan of the to love ru serie, and i understand that you need to keep the comic situation where rito is incapable of declaring his love for haruna. And there it is perfectly normal because it is part of the plot.

It pisses me off! Make those damned couple evolve! Anime creators should stop shying away from kisses and suggested intercourses. They produce god damned lolicon stuff over there!

Sorry for this guy. Had to get it out, purge the bad. It is a thing that is nagging at me all the time. Mind you, i am not talking about sexualizing romance shows. I just think that, for the sake of the emotions you can feel as a viewer, sometime a kiss would do the trick.

But anyway, go watch ore monogatari and golden time. They are still great shows!

The thing with Shoujo is that they are targeted at girls and are supposed to be relatable to that demographic and if they went further like getting married or whatever it wouldn't be relatable to teenage girls anymore.
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby Neko » Sun Feb 26, 2017 5:56 pm

SemiBolt wrote:The thing with Shoujo is that they are targeted at girls and are supposed to be relatable to that demographic and if they went further like getting married or whatever it wouldn't be relatable to teenage girls anymore.


And if the mangaka wants to keep the story going, you keep the romantic/sexual tension going by dragging out the will they, won't they bit. It can be delicious, or it can be tiresome.

I can't say I really grokked the 'top-bottom problem' thing. Maybe I can ask Chris about a specific couple in a specific show. No real spoilers here.

In "My Little Monster" Haru, the male protagonist is definitely aggressive, but it's Shizuku, the female protagonist who calls the shots. Maybe this just breaks out of the mold, or maybe it's a whole other sub-genre I don't know about, but It immediately came to mind as not fitting the model.
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby fragoff » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:03 pm

Chris did specify that all genre could switch place and become dominante especialy if taking emotions into account.

If you look at ore monogatari, the male is huge and strong and the female is very soft and kind. But when the 'good behavior' issue arizes, she is the one taking control of the situation over him. Her out of anger and frustration and him out of love and remorse.
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby Neko » Sun Feb 26, 2017 7:50 pm

fragoff wrote:Chris did specify that all genre could switch place and become dominante especialy if taking emotions into account.

If you look at ore monogatari, the male is huge and strong and the female is very soft and kind. But when the 'good behavior' issue arizes, she is the one taking control of the situation over him. Her out of anger and frustration and him out of love and remorse.


The thing is, Shizuku is not aggressive, but she is strong. Haru is very aggressive, but not very strong, so it's not as simple as that.
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fragoff
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby fragoff » Sun Feb 26, 2017 10:22 pm

I don't think i have seen your anime. But as far as you describe it, it sounds perfectly like an 'emotion against type' case. Where haru will listen to shizuku out of simple love.

Another anime to put in my 'to watch' list. :'(
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby Chris » Sun Feb 26, 2017 11:03 pm

Neko wrote:
fragoff wrote:Question, question, Boku wa.


Hard to explain in that case but yes the emotional axis is in play in they're story. The guy is a kuudere which places him in a bottom position and she is an oujoish tsundere placing her in the top position.

However him having his backstory uses her as the emotional trigger to shift him into a alpha male top type character.

Remember kuudere are emotionally shut off not emotionless hence the reason they are one of the more emotionally unstable.

Most of the reasons for they're conflicts is her tsundere inability to express her emotions and his refusal to express his emotions in a proper way except that he wants her. I really do need to read that manga the story had a lot of potential.

Hope that made sense and answered the question.
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby Neko » Mon Feb 27, 2017 7:10 am

Chris wrote:
Neko wrote:
fragoff wrote:Question, question, Boku wa.


Remember kuudere are emotionally shut off not emotionless hence the reason they are one of the more emotionally unstable.





But remember, Haru isn't emotionally shut off. He is a firehose of emotions, a loose cannon, totally without filters. I don't think he fits any archetypes. Shizuku is the more emotionally shut off character.

I guess my larger point is, leaning too heavily on jargon can be problematic. It can have a tendency to force characters into little boxes where they may, or may not belong. It also sends some of us to wikipedia constantly :)

I know you talked about this being a writing tool or shortcut. And I'm sure sometimes the aggressor/passive dynamic is simply plugged in to a story to start things happening. I guess I wonder how often it is consciously used, and how often this character dynamic arises naturally while the story and characters take shape.
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Re: 291) The Top/Bottom Problem

Postby Mys145 » Mon Feb 27, 2017 8:13 am

I'm not sure if anything I'm going to say is on topic but here goes. I really feel that when people complain about the development of romantic relationships that they are trying to apply logical storytelling principles to something so illogical such as love in general. Sure you can not like how it's going or how unnatural it is but doesn't matter with love since it's so illogical that anything can matter. I feel it's the case that people want the dream development of their romantic relationships that it flows naturally and block out the possibility that relationships can flow unnaturally.