385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

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385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby Andrew » Sun May 20, 2018 10:40 am

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Blu-ray versus Digital Download, Streaming versus Purchasing, and even Artbooks versus PDFs? As the age of digital takes over more of our lives, when will we see the end of the physical goods distribution? Join the hosts of the Animecast as they tackle this topic and give their ideal future.

Topics this episode: Home Video Distribution, Digital Versus Physical, Pros and Cons, Licensing, Desire of Ownership, Merchandise, Digital Anime Goods, Cryptocurrency, Death of Physical Ownership, and more.

The intro music for this episode is the OP for Grimgar of Fantasy and Ash called “Knew day” by (K)NoW_NAME. The outro music for this episode is the ED for Gosick called “unity” by Lisa Komine.

We hope you all enjoy!
http://otakuspirit.com/2018/05/animecas ... hip-dying/
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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby Mr Tib » Mon May 21, 2018 10:51 am

I don't think physical media will ever go away. It might change forms every now and then, but I think there will always be people that like to hold something in their hand. Take a look at when they announced the Xbox one and said it was going to be digital only; people were furious and they had to change back to disk. Another example is with music. You'd think that physical music would have died off with iTunes and Spotify but not only are new albums still released on CDs but a lot are put out on vinyl. Even the 20th anniversary release of cowboy bebop has the full soundtrack on vinyl.
So I think we might be in a transitional phase to something new. Maybe it will be USB sticks that can hold all of One Piece on it, or (what I think) a new invention that we haven't thought of, or who knows maybe we'll go back to VHS tapes for some stupid reason.

Andrew, I love your digital pocket idea. Especially if I could combine the convenience of digital with the look of physical by hooking it up to VR and then have all my stuff sorted in separate rooms. Have the anime room with all my shows on shelfs and if I bought the limited edition, it can look like it or switch it to the regular if it looks better that way. Then go to the movie room were they can be blue-rays or film reals. And I could have a room with all my Playstaion trophies as actual trophies and my Xbox achievements as plaques or metals. And all my gacha characters' could be figures or cards or both. Unfortunately that would be a ton of work and will never happen but now I have something to dream of.

The idea of having a place where you could by shows straight from the studios is interesting, but my big hang up with that is translation. Google (and other AI)translations are not good enough and honestly I don't think they ever will be, and I don't think the Japanese companies would translate them because it cost money and if they did they would probably be poor quality. So that means relying on local companies or fan subers and now we're back to square one.

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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby Chris » Mon May 21, 2018 5:41 pm

Mr Tib wrote: You'd think that physical music would have died off with iTunes and Spotify but not only are new albums still released on CDs but a lot are put out on vinyl. Even the 20th anniversary release of cowboy bebop has the full soundtrack on vinyl.


meh i argue that this is strictly collector thing i havent really seen anyone use a cd in years honestly. but hey i suspect a more rural area may still have a cd store here or there. you even make the point yourself of the vinyl records which are by definition collectors items anymore. (side note our last record store shut down about 5 years ago. our kmart stopped carrying physical media just after christmas. and our walmart has hardly any phisical media left)

Mr Tib wrote:The idea of having a place where you could by shows straight from the studios is interesting, but my big hang up with that is translation. Google (and other AI)translations are not good enough and honestly I don't think they ever will be, and I don't think the Japanese companies would translate them because it cost money and if they did they would probably be poor quality. So that means relying on local companies or fan subers and now we're back to square one.


i disagree, the point was strictly for subtitles. the technology for instant subtitling is already available. the only piece to the puzzle left is the culture barrier. i belive that ai will likely bridge that gap. i belive it will be a little rough at first but instant access with decent translation will win out over "creative" translation. it wont take long for the instant translation to perfect itself.

out side of the initial brunt of cost i dont see why a production company wouldnt want to have instant access to a western market for free.

crunchyroll has to adjust its business model wether it wants to or not. it is about to get blindsided.

meh but its all speculation. not like any of us can tell the future. ai will be the next bump in the road for us and goodness knows how it will affect our industry. heck we dont know how it will affect the world in general. and its about to drop into our lap.
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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby BlueSpark » Thu May 24, 2018 2:36 am

Great discussion, you two. I hate to say it, but your findings seem to boil down to what I'd figured all along: That pirating animes essentially offers you the best of both worlds. Downloading shows in video file format means:

    no decay like with physical discs
    no taking up physical space
    (almost) every show is available, even non-licensed
    stays in your 'possession' forever, irregardless of license expirations
    watchable offline

That's why I would totally jump on a distribution model like that of MP3 download sites.

I've never actually talked about it here since I felt it wouldn't be well-received, but I'll confess right now that I primarily download my animes as MKV files. I then buy the shows I truly enjoyed on DVD/Blu-ray to support the industry. I know it's morally questionable, but buying everything I want to watch isn't financially feasible (especially since I have to import the English-language versions from the UK or US), and I do not support paid subscription streaming models by principle.

Mr Tib wrote:Maybe it will be USB sticks that can hold all of One Piece on it, or (what I think) a new invention that we haven't thought of
As much as I like being able to look at my neatly ordered DVD and Blu-ray collection on my shelf, I'd much rather have my animes on USB sticks with an easily readable file format. That way I could copy them to my harddrive without having to go through an arduous ripping process (which I've actually never done, but from what I heard, it does take quite a bit of work and/or know-how). Of course, DVDs and Blu-rays still have the upper hand when you want to watch stuff on a TV (and own a DVD/Blu-ray player, of course... and aren't screwed over by region locking).

Chris wrote:the technology for instant subtitling is already available.
If this ever becomes widespread, it could potentially kill off anime dubbing for good... At which point I might quit anime altogether, as much as it pains me to consider.
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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby MojaveRena » Thu May 24, 2018 8:23 am

I was gonna say the same thing as Bluespark said, and I also don't mean to imply supporting pirated anime sites, but pirating is a viable alternative when you have no other choice. I have a Netflix account but that doesn't mean every anime is available on their list for me to watch / or I have already watched the anime in question and don't want to re-watch it.

Please don't get me wrong, I hold my hand up and say "I pirate anime too" as I often have no alternative;

A) I have no other choice because Netflix doesn't have all the shows I want to watch.. some shows are never licensed so I have no other choice but to pirate anyway.. (OVAs, Chinese/Korean anime etc...)

B) Because I sometimes want to keep my anime on a USB stick in MP4 format so I can watch them whenever I like (and save space on my computer). When there is no internet where I am, I can just watch the anime I have saved on my USB stick beforehand (And that doesn't require the internet so I'm happy).

C) I can always buy the DVD if I can import it (another problem) and then delete what's on my USB key, but some countries have poor postal services and Italy has one of the worst postal services in Europe, so often my DVDs never arrive or they arrive but the DVDs are stolen and all I receive is an empty DVD case.

Also, manga is often pirated too. A Spanish friend of mine recently went to an anime convention in Barcelona and was told by other people not to buy the manga or anime there in case they were bootlegs. Needless to say some countries have different attitudes towards pirated stuff and that is not an easy thing to change.

Anyways, great podcast as always. Keep it up guys. :)

BlueSpark wrote:I've never actually talked about it here since I felt it wouldn't be well-received, but I'll confess right now that I primarily download my animes as MKV files. I then buy the shows I truly enjoyed on DVD/Blu-ray to support the industry. I know it's morally questionable, but buying everything I want to watch isn't financially feasible (especially since I have to import the English-language versions from the UK or US), and I do not support paid subscription streaming models by principle.

If this ever becomes widespread, it could potentially kill off anime dubbing for good... At which point I might quit anime altogether, as much as it pains me to consider.
It's alright, I do the same thing too. Not every show is available on Netflix anyway and I have watched most of the shows they have to offer, so I often have to resort to "other" ways to watch anime.

In regards to the dubs - I'm not sure it would kill of anime dubs entirely but it will negatively effect their production. I can imagine some fans will stop watching anime if that happens, in which it will potentially stop people from buying the dvds and that means less money for the producers.
Dubs are getting more and more popular these days and some dubbing industries now have links with Japanese companies (like Funimation and Sony) so by killing off dubs, it's going to affect their relationship and their DVD distribution and I am sure they don't want that to happen.
Last edited by MojaveRena on Sun May 27, 2018 2:25 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby Chris » Thu May 24, 2018 11:00 am

BlueSpark wrote:
Chris wrote:the technology for instant subtitling is already available.
If this ever becomes widespread, it could potentially kill off anime dubbing for good... At which point I might quit anime altogether, as much as it pains me to consider.



Nah I doubt it it will destroy subtitles as long as they cannot serve they’re market. There will be a level of goodwill amongs the current customer base but consider this there is a few things involved with a product price quality and ease of access. Crunchyroll roll is providing those for the most part. They also have the goodwill of customers that want to support the industry.

Where are they defeciant it’s not as blatant but the same problem as funimation. They take liberties with the translation. They know they can’t push it as far but they do it.

Why does it matter? First because subtitles are as close to original source for most people the only level of Otaku above sub crowd is actually learning Japanese and watching in native. Then you get to the directors/writer intent. If you translate kamisama as death god and a shinigami shows up later you will have issues. I’m using a trivial point to explain it.

Lately one of our shows is randomly translating nonde I think to “por que?” The first time it was like what the heck? But later it looked like that’s what we are going to have to deal with for the remainder of the show.

To what end what does that do for the show. Were they confused about the translation and decide to call the show runner and ask what the word Ment and got the answer “por que?”

Obviously the writer didn’t say that. So are you ok with creative interpretation? I’m fine with laugh tracks and if you want to do that then by all means do that. But at least have that as a bonus feature. This is why I believe ai will win out it’s nearly free and will not have creative interpretation.

Side note by instant subtitle I ment the closed captioning algrythms youtube uses them currently. It is surprisingly accurate even in the most unintelligible parts.

Now going from Instant Japanese subtitles to translated subtitles is where ai will come into play converting “red ball dog” into “the dog has the red ball”


Let’s hope that made sense. Typing books on iPhones suck.
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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby BlueSpark » Thu May 24, 2018 12:59 pm

Chris wrote:Side note by instant subtitle I ment the closed captioning algrythms youtube uses them currently. It is surprisingly accurate even in the most unintelligible parts.

Now going from Instant Japanese subtitles to translated subtitles is where ai will come into play converting “red ball dog” into “the dog has the red ball”
Ohhh, OK, that thing YouTube does. That's actually a pretty gao nifty feature. However, machine translations are a whole different story in my book. It's true, automated translating will stay as close to the original as possible - with potential negative consequences since it doesn't consistently capture the original writer's intent, either. (Most) modern languages have too many nuances to be captured in simple algorithms (Something as simple as sarcasm might prove a huge obstacle since it doesn't always translate directly from one language to another).

AI might help with that to some extent, but I'm honestly skeptical that even the most refined AI will be able to replace a competent translator in the near future. And that's beside the point that some crazy people like me actually appreciate the creative liberties :P, which any machine would be powerless to replicate.
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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby Chris » Thu May 24, 2018 2:22 pm

BlueSpark wrote:
Chris wrote:Side note by instant subtitle I ment the closed captioning algrythms youtube uses them currently. It is surprisingly accurate even in the most unintelligible parts.

Now going from Instant Japanese subtitles to translated subtitles is where ai will come into play converting “red ball dog” into “the dog has the red ball”
Ohhh, OK, that thing YouTube does. That's actually a pretty gao nifty feature. However, machine translations are a whole different story in my book. It's true, automated translating will stay as close to the original as possible - with potential negative consequences since it doesn't consistently capture the original writer's intent, either. (Most) modern languages have too many nuances to be captured in simple algorithms (Something as simple as sarcasm might prove a huge obstacle since it doesn't always translate directly from one language to another).

AI might help with that to some extent, but I'm honestly skeptical that even the most refined AI will be able to replace a competent translator in the near future. And that's beside the point that some crazy people like me actually appreciate the creative liberties :P, which any machine would be powerless to replicate.



I would agree to a point. My issue is not the creative liberty in itself. It’s using that as an excuse to push the envelope. That is how we ended up with the gamer gate / prison school controversy.

It’s stuff like that that makes me kind of hardline on it. The por que does not bother me it’s the slippery slope. If I allow the crack in the door why not allow them to rewrite the entire storyline. Where is the line? Is it at por que? Why not make an entire character translate to Spanish when they are clearly speaking Japanese? Is that ok? How about the one me and Andrew bring up from time to time. Teme which translates to a gruff version of you. Why change it to darn you? Why not you? And if I allow that change why not kamisama means Satan?

My point is not will I accept creative liberty. It’s why can I not have a simple translation as close to the original as possible. And I believe a lot of people feel the same way. When you get to a certain point of hearing the Japanese long enough you can start picking up on the words. When you see a blatant I’ll call it miss translation although that implies an accidental translation error.

It’s mostly annoying because you can flat out tell that was not the intent of the scene but if you were to bring it up the response would be creative liberty.

So I ask again where is the line? Like I said if you want a laugh track I am perfectly happy with that as a bonus give me my strict translation as close to original as possible if I miss a joke so be it I don’t need a western joke to make it suddenly funny. Most of us are following the culture enough to get most of the jokes.

Another side note before I cut this book off. As a thought experiment if a show flat out offends you is it the translation or the show? We trust the translator to give us the purest script. What if the script offends them? Are they allowed to adjust it for your consumption?

I hope I am not offending anyone I am just playfully debating this topic I will leave it alone if it bothers anyone. I hope the topic is fun for you as it is for me
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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby BlueSpark » Fri May 25, 2018 2:19 am

Chris wrote:It’s why can I not have a simple translation as close to the original as possible. And I believe a lot of people feel the same way.
Oh, I'm sure there are plenty of folks who side with your view. But there are also others like me who appreciate the thought put into the localization process. So my version of your question would be: Why would I need to have a translation that is completely shackled by the original wording, which might not fit into English idiomatically or culturally? And that's beside the point that I'm convinced some creative re-interpretations of jokes are flat-out better in the dub.
This all comes full circle to me not being particularly bothered with the "original intent," though. We're all biased in the end.

Chris wrote:Where is the line?
That's a question one has to debate for any translation in any medium ever. It's in the nature of good translation to find an adequate middle ground between preserving the original wording and creating a new text that accommodates the 'needs' of the target language. At least, that's what I learned in my translation classes at university :P.

Chris wrote:I hope I am not offending anyone I am just playfully debating this topic I will leave it alone if it bothers anyone. I hope the topic is fun for you as it is for me
Nah, it's perfectly cool for you to have a strong opinion and defend it. Everyone's civil here, so debates such as this shouldn't cause any issues. That's my 2 cents, anyway.
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Re: 385) Is Physical Ownership Dying?

Postby michelous » Mon May 28, 2018 4:41 am

the issue with macross is more with robotech and the old harmony gold deal than the music